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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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from Australia for science and reason

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[Music]

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 506 for the 1st of July

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2018 richardsaunders here with you still

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as it happens I'm still in the San

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Francisco Bay Area enjoying a very balmy

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summer at the moment maybe I'll get to

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go home one day soon who knows coming up

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on this week's show I chat to author

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Mick West about his new book escaping

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the rabbit hole a guide to helping

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friends family and loved ones how to

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debunk conspiracy theories using facts

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logic and respect I'm lucky enough to

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have a pre-release copy of the book

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which I'm working my way through at the

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moment and it's fascinating stuff had

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the the history of conspiracy theories

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the the reasoning people have to believe

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in conspiracy theories plus some famous

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conspiracy theories are all covered in

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the book anyway coming up at the top of

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the show I chat to Mick West all about

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his latest publication after that we

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have some news about some map program

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changes at the Australian skeptics

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National Convention with the good news

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being that event dull tremont who we

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interviewed only a couple of weeks ago

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on the sceptic zone is coming to

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Australia and then i chat to dr. angela

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matki who is an emergency physician and

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a good skeptic coming to sydney to give

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a talk at sydney skeptics in the pub now

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she's also involved with a skeptic at

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DragonCon

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so we'll find out a little bit about

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that as well a bit of an abbreviated

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show this week matters here in the

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United States of keeping me quite busy

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at the moment so putting together the

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skeptic zone is a little trickier than

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normal but I'm sure you'll enjoy these

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interviews coming up well now it's time

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for me to run upstairs have a slice of

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American pizza with American cheese not

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do that well I do that I hope you enjoy

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[Music]

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and joining me now on the line all the

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way from Sacramento in California it's

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the author Nick West hello Nick I'm not

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too bad it's good to chat with you know

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we met each other a couple of weeks ago

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it's kept decal in Berkeley California

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and that was a very entertaining day for

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everybody I'm sure and I was very lucky

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you gave me a copy of your upcoming book

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and it's cold folks escaping the rabbit

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hole how to debunk conspiracy theories

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using facts logic and respect let's get

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to that soon but many people might know

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you from the website meta bunk and for

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those people who don't what can you tell

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us about that well meta bug is actually

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my second big website that I did I

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started out doing a website called

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contrails science because a long time

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ago about 10 years ago now I got really

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interested in the chemtrail conspiracy

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theory this was back when I was learning

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to fly and learning about things like

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aviation and aviation weather and I

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started this website cantrell science

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just the idea was to try to debunk the

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chemtrail conspiracy theory but 10 years

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later I still haven't convinced

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everybody but out of that grew meta bunk

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I was people started bringing up other

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things on contrails science because you

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know if you start talking about one

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conspiracy theory you often start

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talking about another one so people will

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talk about chemtrails and then they

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would bring up 9/11 and so I needed a

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bigger forum that I could use to chat

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about things and so meta bunk was born

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and what what sort of things are

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regularly covered on meta bunk it's not

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just chemtrails of course no it's not

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it's it's a variety of things that I

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think you would characterize as

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alternative beliefs and that would be

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things like conspiracy theories and

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pseudoscience and occasionally the

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paranormal things like that things that

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you obviously are very familiar with

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with there's a big focus there on

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conspiracy theories because of my

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background with the chemtrails and then

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he moved on to the 911 but I also do a

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lot of

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UFO spotting it's one of the more fun

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things to do because because the

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chemtrail thing a lot of that was based

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on the misidentification of aircraft

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that naturally carried over into

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identifying things like strange orbs and

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blobs and things flying around in the

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sky so that's a lot of fun to do deep by

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investigating UFOs it's so nice to know

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somebody out there is still

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investigating these UFOs and I'm just

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there perusing your website I noticed

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that you do things like we'll take

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photographs and analyze the photographs

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to try to reveal the truth behind that

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there must be very entertaining it is

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yes and my background is actually I'm a

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video game programmer hmm I worked on

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the Tony Hawk video games back like a

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long time ago like 20 years ago now we

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started doing that so I know a lot of

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pixels basically and how how digital

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images work so it's gonna be useful

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background to have when you're analyzing

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photographs of things like you know UFOs

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or supposed ghosts you can take them

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into Photoshop and you can you can

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analyze them adjust the levels and

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contrast and whatnot and and you know

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it's cover a fun little side thing it's

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not really like the the serious stuff

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like conspiracy theories but it's an

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interesting thing to do do I do find

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there's a lot of interaction on that

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website the people send you things yes

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they do we actually have a sub forum

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called

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sky denta Phi which is basically

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identifying things that are in the sky

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and then of course grew out of the

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identifying supposed chemtrail planes

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the people quite often will send me a

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photograph of something or a video of

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something and a special look at it for

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example a while ago someone sent me a

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video that the Chilean Navy had shot of

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a supposed to UFO that the Chilean

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government had not managed to figure out

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what it was and so me and the boys on

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the identified team we we looked at that

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in some detail and figured out exactly

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what it was it was just a plane flying

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away I guess it must be

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I must be quite fulfilling to do

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something like that oh I'll do you get

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the occasional one-way you just have to

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say we just can't unravel this it's too

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vague yeah yeah it's fun when you can't

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figure out exactly what it were

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sometimes you can get the exact plane

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because you can track down the radar

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tracks but a lot of the time these

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things you end up saying well it could

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be this it could be that or it could be

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a third thing or it could be aliens yeah

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so people people take from that the last

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thing they say oh it could be something

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or it could be aliens so they they kind

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of jump on it as a 50/50 thing when

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really what I'm saying is like this

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there's like 50% chance there's a plane

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there's a forty nine point nine nine

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nine percent chance that it's a bird and

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there's a point zero zero zero zero one

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percent chance that it's some kind of

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alien or advanced technology of some

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sort and how often is that website

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updated or new information put up

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they're not as often as I would like but

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you know try to get new stuff up every

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week but I've been very busy recently

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finishing off the book so I'm planning

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to get more stuff up there as soon as

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possible but the the forums themselves

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are so pretty active people post on

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there every day that's great and where

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can people go to visit medibang what's

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the website

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it's a meta bunk org that's easy enough

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to remember now let's turn to the book

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and I have right here in my hot little

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hands a copy of your bull or an advance

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copy I should say which you gave me at

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skeptic al I've been having a wonderful

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time reading I not all the way through

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just yet but the early chapters is quite

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interesting and it's it's not not

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bite-sized pieces of information exactly

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it's more extensive than that and let me

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ask you a few questions about it because

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I noticed that you say in the early part

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of the book that the book is sort of

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more or less aimed at your friend now

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tell me about your friend well your

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friend is a general term that I use for

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a person that you were trying to

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convince you know essentially trying to

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convince them that they're wrong if they

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are in fact actually wrong so it would

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be somebody who believes in say the

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chemtrail conspiracy theory or the 9/11

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conspiracy theory and often this is

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somebody that you know it could be

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one in your family or someone you know

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at your place of work or someone who was

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a friend and I struggle for a while with

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a name to get these people like I would

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say yeah your opponent or the believer

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or the conspiracy theorist and I just

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figured it would be much simpler to say

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what it most commonly is which is just

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someone who's a friend I mean maybe

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they're just an acquaintance but I think

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it's best to think of you know the

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person you're talking to you as a friend

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that you are trying to help so through

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the book I just refer to the person that

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you are having the debate with or the

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person you're trying to help as your

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friend

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yeah and indeed you also make the point

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that your friend might even be yourself

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if that's the person reading the book

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indeed yes yes that's something like

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people who believe in conspiracy

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theories you know they don't believe in

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all the conspiracy theories so they

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could read the book regarding like

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conspiracy theories that they think are

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too extreme like 9/11 truthers might

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we'll probably do not believe that the

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earth is flat and that's one of the

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reasons I included it extreme conspiracy

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theories like the Flat Earth even though

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it's you know not hugely popular but it

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gives people perspective even if they

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believe in chemtrails they don't believe

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in the Flat Earth and here is how you

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would do bunk the Flat Earth and maybe

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some of that could have applied to you

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so maybe you want to check your own

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beliefs

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you know validate your where you were

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drawing the line you know what is what

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is what is the actual facts of the

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matter and you know I think the book

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will help individuals as well as help

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people help other people I think that's

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a very good point you make because I

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certainly have people I would call my

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friend my friends and some of those

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people are into various conspiracy

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theories but it is a fascinating thing

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to think that as you say the

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flat-earthers

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chemtrails and think oh of course that's

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a conspiracy theory of course they're

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just natural

275
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although 9/11 truthers might then look

276
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at the flat earthers and say to the Flat

277
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Earth as you're you're crazy it's it's

278
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it's fascinating and I think it really

279
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also

280
00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:30,190
ties in quite well with the title of the

281
00:11:34,860 --> 00:11:33,010
book escaping the rabbit hole and I

282
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guess you make the point it comes from

283
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Alice's Adventures in Wonderland I think

284
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once you're down the rabbit hole it can

285
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be very difficult to get out of yeah you

286
00:11:45,180 --> 00:11:43,030
can and either won't use the usage of

287
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the rabbit hole actually comes from the

288
00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:48,310
movie The Matrix uh-huh and a lot of

289
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people kind of look at the matrix than

290
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:53,050
the movie as a kind of you know

291
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descriptor of the way the world is that

292
00:12:01,170 --> 00:11:58,090
yeah things are not as as they seem that

293
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there is a hidden reality behind the

294
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reality that it's presented to us in the

295
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media and you know the rabbit hole is

296
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what you discover when you kind of strip

297
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away this this this facade of the

298
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supposed to sort that's been put up by

299
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the you know the mainstream media but

300
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you know the rabbit hole is is a very

301
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convoluted place I talk a lot in the

302
00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:26,320
book about how people get sucked into

303
00:12:32,730 --> 00:12:29,970
the rabbit hole by watching videos and

304
00:12:34,890 --> 00:12:32,740
what generally happens is that they will

305
00:12:37,740 --> 00:12:34,900
start watching one video on particular

306
00:12:39,420 --> 00:12:37,750
topics a chemtrails or 9/11 and then

307
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YouTube will kind of feed them another

308
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one and then another and another and

309
00:12:45,390 --> 00:12:43,480
another and they kind of get drawn in by

310
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this it's almost like a drug it's almost

311
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like once they start getting hooked on

312
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this information they get deeper and

313
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deeper in and the more they watch the

314
00:12:58,290 --> 00:12:55,390
harder it is to get them out again yeah

315
00:13:01,350 --> 00:12:58,300
it's it's I think the title is quite apt

316
00:13:03,270 --> 00:13:01,360
now folks when you get your hands on the

317
00:13:06,950 --> 00:13:03,280
copy of this book you can have a look at

318
00:13:09,720 --> 00:13:06,960
the classics I guess you'd say like 9/11

319
00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:09,730
we have also the Flat Earth is mentioned

320
00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:13,450
in their chemtrails of course and that

321
00:13:17,550 --> 00:13:15,970
that's really a classic of all

322
00:13:20,100 --> 00:13:17,560
conspiracy theories and it's still going

323
00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:20,110
on today but what what do you think the

324
00:13:24,210 --> 00:13:22,870
psychology is behind some of these well

325
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:24,220
I once had the conspiracy theories

326
00:13:27,990 --> 00:13:26,410
themselves but the people who buy into

327
00:13:30,540 --> 00:13:28,000
them do you think they feel then that

328
00:13:32,870 --> 00:13:30,550
they are empowered because they've

329
00:13:35,880 --> 00:13:32,880
discovered some sort of hidden truth

330
00:13:39,150 --> 00:13:35,890
they I do think I do think so when you

331
00:13:41,670 --> 00:13:39,160
talk to people they talk about feeling

332
00:13:43,560 --> 00:13:41,680
special one of the interviews

333
00:13:47,070 --> 00:13:43,570
in the book is with a guy called Steve

334
00:13:49,769 --> 00:13:47,080
and he basically said that the

335
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:49,779
conspiracy theory became his his life

336
00:13:55,740 --> 00:13:53,050
and it became his social life he had a

337
00:13:58,320 --> 00:13:55,750
really good time at these 9/11 meetings

338
00:14:01,890 --> 00:13:58,330
whereas he said there were lots of hot

339
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:01,900
chicks there who also believed in 9/11

340
00:14:08,579 --> 00:14:03,910
and so it was a great way of meeting

341
00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:08,589
people so it became you know he could

342
00:14:12,540 --> 00:14:11,170
basically rejected the life that he had

343
00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:12,550
before and he took on this new life

344
00:14:17,730 --> 00:14:14,440
which was just the people who believed

345
00:14:20,579 --> 00:14:17,740
in 9/11 it's not really a cult because

346
00:14:22,769 --> 00:14:20,589
the cult is usually centered around you

347
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:22,779
know one charismatic person it's kind of

348
00:14:29,940 --> 00:14:26,610
as a shared belief system but it becomes

349
00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:29,950
for them very much part of their

350
00:14:35,370 --> 00:14:33,430
identity yeah and and do you make a good

351
00:14:37,079 --> 00:14:35,380
point about the social aspect of it too

352
00:14:38,579 --> 00:14:37,089
I mean I guess that's why a lot of

353
00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:38,589
people come to something like skeptics

354
00:14:42,540 --> 00:14:40,330
in the pub around the world because it's

355
00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:42,550
a great chance to interact with people

356
00:14:47,070 --> 00:14:45,310
of a similar mind yeah it's actually a

357
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:47,080
very similar type of thing when you look

358
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:49,690
at it from their perspective they think

359
00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:51,490
they're being very skeptical they think

360
00:14:55,920 --> 00:14:53,290
they've discovered some some truth about

361
00:14:59,100 --> 00:14:55,930
the universe and it makes them feel

362
00:15:00,920 --> 00:14:59,110
special and it's quite possible a lot of

363
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:00,930
skeptics actually have a similar

364
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:03,910
psychological thing going on yeah people

365
00:15:10,170 --> 00:15:07,690
who debunk actually enjoy some of them

366
00:15:12,210 --> 00:15:10,180
enjoy pointing out mistakes and I think

367
00:15:15,300 --> 00:15:12,220
you know even if they're not conscious

368
00:15:16,769 --> 00:15:15,310
of it skeptics and debunkers themselves

369
00:15:19,740 --> 00:15:16,779
might be doing the same thing they're

370
00:15:21,660 --> 00:15:19,750
there feeling special and I think that

371
00:15:24,690 --> 00:15:21,670
that points to like a broader point that

372
00:15:27,090 --> 00:15:24,700
these psychological reasons why people

373
00:15:30,510 --> 00:15:27,100
do things aren't really aberrations

374
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:30,520
they're not psychological problems in

375
00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:32,170
the sense that they're mentally ill

376
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:35,170
they're just ordinary people and they've

377
00:15:39,449 --> 00:15:37,570
just found a different way of fulfilling

378
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:39,459
these needs that we have like we all

379
00:15:42,449 --> 00:15:41,110
want to feel special I like feeling

380
00:15:46,110 --> 00:15:42,459
special I'm sure you like spilling

381
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:46,120
special - and the conspiracy theorists

382
00:15:50,579 --> 00:15:48,490
have just been sucked into this rabbit

383
00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:50,589
hole that allows them to feel special in

384
00:15:54,329 --> 00:15:52,450
a certain way and because they enjoy

385
00:15:55,350 --> 00:15:54,339
doing it they keep doing it what it's

386
00:15:57,660 --> 00:15:55,360
nice to think that you

387
00:15:59,850 --> 00:15:57,670
on the inside of the informational

388
00:16:01,319 --> 00:15:59,860
you've got the special information or

389
00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:01,329
you know something other people don't

390
00:16:07,319 --> 00:16:05,290
know and do you think that's why and it

391
00:16:08,940 --> 00:16:07,329
doesn't just stop a conspiracy people

392
00:16:11,699 --> 00:16:08,950
who are into conspiracy theories but

393
00:16:15,690 --> 00:16:11,709
people who don't think they've found

394
00:16:17,639 --> 00:16:15,700
something often want other people to to

395
00:16:20,430 --> 00:16:17,649
be involved to like spreading the word

396
00:16:22,019 --> 00:16:20,440
you know letting other people know and I

397
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:22,029
think that's common through many many

398
00:16:27,389 --> 00:16:24,910
aspects of life yeah very much so

399
00:16:31,350 --> 00:16:27,399
ok you know people who are very

400
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:31,360
evangelical about things like what type

401
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:33,970
of computer they they like like like

402
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:36,240
like Apple a lot

403
00:16:40,590 --> 00:16:38,410
evangelical or promoters of a certain

404
00:16:41,819 --> 00:16:40,600
thing like they'd like people enjoy

405
00:16:43,769 --> 00:16:41,829
sharing their knowledge with other

406
00:16:46,860 --> 00:16:43,779
people and again these are like

407
00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:46,870
psychological things that you know are

408
00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:49,930
comments of everyone yeah and one of the

409
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:52,300
things I looked at was studies of

410
00:16:57,630 --> 00:16:56,079
conspiracy theories theorists and you

411
00:17:00,540 --> 00:16:57,640
know are there actually psychological

412
00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:00,550
reasons and it seemed like you know that

413
00:17:04,650 --> 00:17:03,190
are there are things where if you have a

414
00:17:07,230 --> 00:17:04,660
certain tendency you're a bit more

415
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:07,240
likely to become a conspiracy theorist

416
00:17:11,460 --> 00:17:09,730
but it's not really that significant

417
00:17:17,059 --> 00:17:11,470
you know the again these are things that

418
00:17:19,770 --> 00:17:17,069
are shared by everybody the just like

419
00:17:22,350 --> 00:17:19,780
function the biases like mental biases

420
00:17:24,870 --> 00:17:22,360
that people have psychological biases

421
00:17:27,210 --> 00:17:24,880
like the confirmation bias when you look

422
00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:27,220
for evidence for a belief you only look

423
00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:28,690
for evidence that confirms it and you

424
00:17:33,419 --> 00:17:30,970
don't look for evidence there refutes

425
00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:33,429
that you know unless you're a trained

426
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:35,410
scientist or trained skeptic then most

427
00:17:41,370 --> 00:17:37,450
people will fall for these these

428
00:17:43,049 --> 00:17:41,380
psychological biases and the people who

429
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:43,059
fall into conspiracy theorists may be

430
00:17:46,890 --> 00:17:45,010
slightly more prone to this type of

431
00:17:50,490 --> 00:17:46,900
thing but they might not I think a lot

432
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,500
of it is down to their environment and

433
00:17:54,810 --> 00:17:52,480
just what they were exposed to it's kind

434
00:17:57,570 --> 00:17:54,820
of a nature not nurture type thing or

435
00:17:59,549 --> 00:17:57,580
nurture not nature yeah well it looks

436
00:18:02,700 --> 00:17:59,559
like to me you could write a whole a

437
00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:02,710
whole extra chapter on this book about

438
00:18:08,190 --> 00:18:05,050
all those issues - well haul extra book

439
00:18:09,299 --> 00:18:08,200
I mean because there's so much folks

440
00:18:10,590 --> 00:18:09,309
there was so much

441
00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:10,600
when you think about conspiracy theories

442
00:18:15,299 --> 00:18:12,610
now this book as I said before it's not

443
00:18:17,100 --> 00:18:15,309
just a little bite-sized look at a

444
00:18:19,379 --> 00:18:17,110
certain conspiracy theory and then

445
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:19,389
unraveling it it's quite in-depth really

446
00:18:23,639 --> 00:18:21,610
going into psychology in the history in

447
00:18:26,399 --> 00:18:23,649
fact I found interesting the history of

448
00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:26,409
the term conspiracy theory itself how

449
00:18:31,289 --> 00:18:29,190
the CIA became involved things like

450
00:18:33,450 --> 00:18:31,299
popular culture like the men in black

451
00:18:35,610 --> 00:18:33,460
movies the book is called escaping the

452
00:18:38,220 --> 00:18:35,620
rabbit hole how to debunk conspiracy

453
00:18:40,580 --> 00:18:38,230
theories using facts logic and respect

454
00:18:43,430 --> 00:18:40,590
now that's going to be brought to us by

455
00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:43,440
skyhorse publishing when when can people

456
00:18:48,419 --> 00:18:45,850
order that or when when can people get

457
00:18:52,049 --> 00:18:48,429
that well you can pre-order it now on

458
00:18:55,279 --> 00:18:52,059
Amazon and various other places and it

459
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:55,289
will be released on September the 18th

460
00:18:59,970 --> 00:18:57,610
alright folks I can recommend the book

461
00:19:02,700 --> 00:18:59,980
I'm enjoying it very much so far I'll

462
00:19:05,070 --> 00:19:02,710
put a link to the pre-order in this

463
00:19:06,779 --> 00:19:05,080
week's show notes well Mick thank you

464
00:19:08,999 --> 00:19:06,789
very much for sparing some time to talk

465
00:19:12,629 --> 00:19:09,009
about meta bunk and conspiracy theories

466
00:19:14,009 --> 00:19:12,639
what's the next project well I'm gonna

467
00:19:16,409 --> 00:19:14,019
get back on to meadow Bronk and start

468
00:19:17,669 --> 00:19:16,419
writing some more more content but I've

469
00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:17,679
also got to write a sequel to the book

470
00:19:23,820 --> 00:19:21,970
I'm thinking perhaps writing tales from

471
00:19:25,980 --> 00:19:23,830
the rabbit hole which is gonna focus

472
00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:25,990
more on the individuals and their

473
00:19:30,239 --> 00:19:28,450
stories people who are still down the

474
00:19:32,669 --> 00:19:30,249
rabbit hole and people who have escaped

475
00:19:35,790 --> 00:19:32,679
excellent well Nick West thank you very

476
00:19:58,470 --> 00:19:35,800
much thank you rich

477
00:20:02,980 --> 00:20:00,940
from the Australian skeptics we hear

478
00:20:07,660 --> 00:20:02,990
that there are speaker changes happy

479
00:20:09,730 --> 00:20:07,670
2018 skeptic on Convention as reported

480
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:09,740
on the Australian skeptics website

481
00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:12,770
skeptics comdataís you there have been a

482
00:20:18,370 --> 00:20:15,050
couple of changes for the speaker

483
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:18,380
line-up at the Australian skeptics xxxiv

484
00:20:23,980 --> 00:20:21,050
National Convention in Sydney October

485
00:20:26,530 --> 00:20:23,990
the 13th to the 14th we are excited to

486
00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:26,540
announce that Evette tsai babe

487
00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:29,000
dawn 3 mom is coming to australia to

488
00:20:34,050 --> 00:20:31,730
share her experiences in fighting the

489
00:20:36,460 --> 00:20:34,060
forces of ignorance and pseudoscience

490
00:20:39,370 --> 00:20:36,470
especially in the field of food

491
00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:39,380
nutrition and quote wellness banquet

492
00:20:46,900 --> 00:20:41,930
with a background in forensics and

493
00:20:49,690 --> 00:20:46,910
toxicology a sharp BS detector and a big

494
00:20:52,600 --> 00:20:49,700
dose of humor the often controversial

495
00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:52,610
campaigner and blogger has also taken on

496
00:20:58,000 --> 00:20:55,490
falsehoods in alternative medicine the

497
00:21:01,090 --> 00:20:58,010
anti-vaccination movement and the anti

498
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:01,100
GMO movement we know that she will be a

499
00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:03,770
highly attractive and entertaining

500
00:21:10,660 --> 00:21:07,760
addition to the lineup the sad news is

501
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:10,670
that Sydney and Justin McElroy the

502
00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:13,490
Sawbones podcast have had to cancel

503
00:21:18,550 --> 00:21:15,650
their appearance at the 2018 convention

504
00:21:20,740 --> 00:21:18,560
due to unexpected family medical issues

505
00:21:23,050 --> 00:21:20,750
the McElroy's say that the issues are

506
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:23,060
not life-threatening and do not directly

507
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:25,250
involve either of them but the situation

508
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:27,170
does prevent them from making the

509
00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:29,810
journey may send that deep apologies and

510
00:21:34,850 --> 00:21:31,310
say that they are really disappointed

511
00:21:37,070 --> 00:21:34,860
not to be part of the 2018 convention

512
00:21:40,150 --> 00:21:37,080
but they do hope to come to Australia in

513
00:21:42,799 --> 00:21:40,160
the not-too-distant future

514
00:21:45,380 --> 00:21:42,809
while we are likewise disappointed that

515
00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:45,390
the popular Sawbones couple will not be

516
00:21:52,039 --> 00:21:48,780
able to make it and we hope to have them

517
00:21:54,410 --> 00:21:52,049
back at a future event for more details

518
00:22:24,260 --> 00:21:54,420
about the upcoming convention head to

519
00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:24,270
skeptics comm au and joining me now just

520
00:22:28,940 --> 00:22:26,100
to say hello and a bit of information

521
00:22:33,140 --> 00:22:28,950
about her upcoming talk it's dr. Angela

522
00:22:34,850 --> 00:22:33,150
Mackay hello it's great to see you and

523
00:22:37,130 --> 00:22:34,860
yes thanks to the miracle of the

524
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:37,140
internet we are seeing each other you're

525
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:39,600
in Atlanta Georgia you don't get home

526
00:22:51,799 --> 00:22:48,450
too often I don't think it does indeed

527
00:22:53,360 --> 00:22:51,809
and Sydney listeners especially Judy is

528
00:22:56,090 --> 00:22:53,370
bringing you all the way to Sydney and

529
00:23:00,400 --> 00:22:56,100
you'll be talking at skeptics in the pub

530
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:00,410
in July in Sydney how exciting is that I

531
00:23:06,980 --> 00:23:03,090
can't wait I'm looking so forward to

532
00:23:08,419 --> 00:23:06,990
this this is actually sort of a special

533
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:08,429
one for the Sydney skeptics in the pub

534
00:23:13,789 --> 00:23:11,610
they've been kind enough to alter their

535
00:23:17,180 --> 00:23:13,799
usual meeting dates so that I get to

536
00:23:20,659 --> 00:23:17,190
talk to them on July 12th yeah which is

537
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:20,669
unusual for them so I'm coming in town

538
00:23:26,630 --> 00:23:24,240
and I really can't wait to see everyone

539
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:26,640
yeah we're looking forward to it now as

540
00:23:31,610 --> 00:23:29,370
Sydney folks is a special thing coming

541
00:23:34,370 --> 00:23:31,620
up indeed dr. Angela Matt key not only

542
00:23:35,950 --> 00:23:34,380
are you do you have a wealth of medical

543
00:23:38,210 --> 00:23:35,960
experience but you have a wealth of

544
00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:38,220
skeptical experience by now cuz you've

545
00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:40,470
been in the skepticism game for some

546
00:23:52,290 --> 00:23:49,820
- I have also now recently been

547
00:23:55,380 --> 00:23:52,300
appointed the assistant director of skip

548
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:55,390
track at DragonCon in Atlanta and I've

549
00:24:03,000 --> 00:23:59,200
given speech talks to the blue skeptics

550
00:24:06,660 --> 00:24:03,010
in Melbourne and at the skeptic camp in

551
00:24:07,980 --> 00:24:06,670
Brisbane yes of course I think it was a

552
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:07,990
couple of years ago I remember seeing

553
00:24:12,030 --> 00:24:10,210
you in Brisbane I've seen you I've seen

554
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:12,040
you since then when you made a brief

555
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:14,530
visit to Sydney I'm thinking about a

556
00:24:19,530 --> 00:24:17,440
year ago but it's it's it's good to know

557
00:24:22,140 --> 00:24:19,540
that you're coming back to to give a

558
00:24:30,350 --> 00:24:22,150
talk what can what can skeptics in the

559
00:24:39,140 --> 00:24:35,210
it's about when the dogma of religion

560
00:24:42,030 --> 00:24:39,150
which had been the guiding force behind

561
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:42,040
medical treatments meets up with the gut

562
00:24:49,650 --> 00:24:46,210
the dogma of medicine because for many

563
00:24:54,860 --> 00:24:49,660
years doctors did not use the scientific

564
00:24:57,840 --> 00:24:54,870
method and once that began to be used we

565
00:25:01,500 --> 00:24:57,850
developed modern medicine however it

566
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:01,510
took an amazingly long time for that to

567
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:05,200
apply really yes the title of the talk

568
00:25:11,820 --> 00:25:10,240
is dogma it's a dog-eat-dog world that

569
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:11,830
sounds good now tell me a little bit

570
00:25:16,530 --> 00:25:15,010
more about your work for DragonCon

571
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:16,540
because sadly I don't think I'll be able

572
00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:18,400
to make DragonCon this year in Atlanta I

573
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:20,530
haven't been for many years in fact but

574
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:22,570
I'm glad after all these years it's

575
00:25:29,970 --> 00:25:25,120
still going strong well Richard you're

576
00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:29,980
long overdue yes yes it's going strong

577
00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:31,990
and in fact Margaret Downey has been

578
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:35,170
amazing at getting our skeptic community

579
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:37,810
more visible in the Atlanta community as

580
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:40,090
part of the skeptic for a part of the

581
00:25:44,760 --> 00:25:43,210
parade DragonCon has a parade that

582
00:25:47,550 --> 00:25:44,770
marches through the streets of downtown

583
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:47,560
Atlanta every Labor Day weekend and if

584
00:25:53,070 --> 00:25:50,410
you haven't seen stormtroopers marching

585
00:25:54,510 --> 00:25:53,080
down the street in Atlanta you have not

586
00:25:56,940 --> 00:25:54,520
left I'm just saying

587
00:25:59,100 --> 00:25:56,950
and I think one year you even dressed up

588
00:26:00,120 --> 00:25:59,110
as a crash-test dummy to drive James

589
00:26:03,360 --> 00:26:00,130
Randi down the street

590
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:03,370
I was indeed too dressed as a crash-test

591
00:26:11,130 --> 00:26:07,570
dummy there are the costumes are so

592
00:26:16,140 --> 00:26:11,140
amazing I can't even begin to tell you

593
00:26:18,990 --> 00:26:16,150
how amazing they are it is the biggest

594
00:26:21,660 --> 00:26:19,000
event I think I've ever been to from a

595
00:26:23,700 --> 00:26:21,670
cosplay perspective and in fact I hardly

596
00:26:25,650 --> 00:26:23,710
cosplay at all because I'm so

597
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:25,660
intimidated at the talent of the bull

598
00:26:32,370 --> 00:26:29,610
there one of my favorite costumes was a

599
00:26:35,630 --> 00:26:32,380
costume that was from How to Train Your

600
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:35,640
Dragon a thirteen year old girl had

601
00:26:41,250 --> 00:26:38,290
decided that was something she loved and

602
00:26:43,770 --> 00:26:41,260
she really wanted to do this costume so

603
00:26:45,660 --> 00:26:43,780
she told her father who took her to

604
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:45,670
Michael's which is a local craft store

605
00:26:52,170 --> 00:26:48,910
chain in America and was able to

606
00:26:55,140 --> 00:26:52,180
purchase all of the equipment to

607
00:26:58,260 --> 00:26:55,150
manufacture the costume she did not want

608
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:58,270
any help she did the entire thing all on

609
00:27:01,500 --> 00:26:58,720
her own

610
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:01,510
I had a detailed discussion with her

611
00:27:06,570 --> 00:27:03,970
aunt who told me all about it and I

612
00:27:10,260 --> 00:27:06,580
think even though the costume was not a

613
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:10,270
professional quality it was so good for

614
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:12,610
her level I cannot wait to see what this

615
00:27:16,770 --> 00:27:14,890
young lady produces it's amazing Dragon

616
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:16,780
Con is like that I I mean I remember the

617
00:27:21,630 --> 00:27:20,410
three times I went the dedication from

618
00:27:23,970 --> 00:27:21,640
the fans is stunning

619
00:27:25,770 --> 00:27:23,980
and I was very lucky to go for three

620
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:25,780
years in a row but I must say The

621
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:28,090
Skeptical crack the skip track at Dragon

622
00:27:32,670 --> 00:27:30,490
Con was well attended every year I was

623
00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:32,680
there it was a lot of fun and it was

624
00:27:36,450 --> 00:27:34,180
also a great way to reach new people

625
00:27:39,180 --> 00:27:36,460
because people would simply come out to

626
00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:39,190
or come in to the to the room out of

627
00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:46,390
curiosity well Derek : dunno had this

628
00:27:53,610 --> 00:27:47,980
scheduled track that he had just created

629
00:27:57,120 --> 00:27:53,620
and I happened to be there and saw the

630
00:28:01,350 --> 00:27:57,130
listing on the program and I did not

631
00:28:02,970 --> 00:28:01,360
even realize I was a skeptic you know

632
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:02,980
what I think that that's the first time

633
00:28:07,980 --> 00:28:06,010
we met because in my going back through

634
00:28:10,230 --> 00:28:07,990
my photographs of the time I was looking

635
00:28:11,180 --> 00:28:10,240
back and there is you sitting in the

636
00:28:15,410 --> 00:28:11,190
audience

637
00:28:21,890 --> 00:28:15,420
oh that's sweet well don't show those to

638
00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:21,900
anyone please Derek : dunno was so good

639
00:28:25,220 --> 00:28:24,360
about getting the audience engaged that

640
00:28:28,310 --> 00:28:25,230
he

641
00:28:32,030 --> 00:28:28,320
oh and trying to get younger people

642
00:28:34,850 --> 00:28:32,040
engaged that he actually had who have

643
00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:34,860
the person with the microphone go and

644
00:28:40,340 --> 00:28:38,280
ask questions of my son who is in the

645
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:40,350
audience and with about 11 or 12 at the

646
00:28:48,910 --> 00:28:45,840
time and talk about how to keep young

647
00:28:52,730 --> 00:28:48,920
people engaged in science and skepticism

648
00:28:56,060 --> 00:28:52,740
and that was a big moment for me because

649
00:28:58,460 --> 00:28:56,070
I I loved having someone interested in

650
00:28:58,970 --> 00:28:58,470
what my son thought well that's a great

651
00:29:01,450 --> 00:28:58,980
story

652
00:29:04,430 --> 00:29:01,460
now folks here's the word the 12th of

653
00:29:06,980 --> 00:29:04,440
July for Sydney skeptics in the pub link

654
00:29:08,150 --> 00:29:06,990
in this week's show notes and we're all

655
00:29:10,010 --> 00:29:08,160
looking forward to seeing you there

656
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:10,020
folks if you're coming along you can ask

657
00:29:15,020 --> 00:29:12,450
dr. Angela Mackay all about her

658
00:29:17,420 --> 00:29:15,030
adventures in promoting science and

659
00:29:20,060 --> 00:29:17,430
reasons especially at DragonCon world

660
00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:20,070
dr. Angie I look forward to seeing you

661
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:24,950
very soon in a very few weeks in Sydney

662
00:29:30,350 --> 00:29:27,330
you and everyone else from the Sydney

663
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:30,360
skeptics the skeptics in the buff July

664
00:29:54,539 --> 00:29:31,730
12

665
00:29:59,740 --> 00:29:57,100
now here's a message from our friends in

666
00:30:00,220 --> 00:29:59,750
Victoria the Maury Alec skeptics in the

667
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:00,230
pub

668
00:30:08,890 --> 00:30:03,410
the next meetup is Thursday the 3rd of

669
00:30:12,310 --> 00:30:08,900
July when human beings are like drunk

670
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:12,320
robots driverless vehicles ethics and

671
00:30:20,650 --> 00:30:15,440
the future of Transport a talk by dr.

672
00:30:23,650 --> 00:30:20,660
mark Howard of Monash University mark

673
00:30:26,350 --> 00:30:23,660
works in the ethics of new technologies

674
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:26,360
AI and robotics and applies his

675
00:30:34,900 --> 00:30:29,090
expertise to intelligent transport

676
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:34,910
systems i TS recent research reveals the

677
00:30:40,260 --> 00:30:37,490
radical implications of a driverless

678
00:30:44,530 --> 00:30:40,270
future on public safety the environment

679
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:44,540
urban planning and transport policy now

680
00:30:49,150 --> 00:30:46,490
this presentation will start at 7:30

681
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:49,160
p.m. for more details see the Morty

682
00:30:55,750 --> 00:30:51,650
meet-up website links in this week's

683
00:30:57,549 --> 00:30:55,760
show notes and the note says why not

684
00:31:00,240 --> 00:30:57,559
join mark in the rest of the group for

685
00:31:02,830 --> 00:31:00,250
dinner beforehand in Jack's restaurant

686
00:31:05,220 --> 00:31:02,840
located downstairs at the Maury sporting

687
00:31:20,919 --> 00:31:05,230
club dinner at 6:15 p.m.

688
00:31:24,950 --> 00:31:23,120
thank you for listening to the skeptic

689
00:31:26,749 --> 00:31:24,960
zone podcast and I look forward to

690
00:31:29,299 --> 00:31:26,759
seeing Sydneysiders at sydney's skeptics

691
00:31:32,419 --> 00:31:29,309
in the pub with dr. Angie coming up on

692
00:31:33,860 --> 00:31:32,429
the twelfth and if you can't make Sydney

693
00:31:35,779 --> 00:31:33,870
skeptics in the pub on the tour then you

694
00:31:37,820 --> 00:31:35,789
happen to be in New York on the 12th

695
00:31:40,669 --> 00:31:37,830
don't forget the Northeast Conference of

696
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:40,679
science and skepticism on at from the

697
00:31:46,549 --> 00:31:43,710
12th to the 15th in New York and I was

698
00:31:50,210 --> 00:31:46,559
very lucky enough to be a speaker at the

699
00:31:52,639 --> 00:31:50,220
last year's Ness what a wonderful time

700
00:31:55,279 --> 00:31:52,649
it was and if you're in New York you can

701
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:55,289
see such wonderful people as James the

702
00:31:59,720 --> 00:31:58,080
amazing Randi will be there the skeptics

703
00:32:02,570 --> 00:31:59,730
guide to the universe crew of course

704
00:32:07,159 --> 00:32:02,580
they'll be there dr. Harriet Hall George

705
00:32:09,499 --> 00:32:07,169
Horeb and I hear tell even Bill Nye Oh

706
00:32:11,570 --> 00:32:09,509
Michael Marshall as well what a lineup

707
00:32:14,570 --> 00:32:11,580
it is folks what a lineup of great

708
00:32:19,249 --> 00:32:14,580
speakers for more information head to n

709
00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:19,259
e CSS dot org and i wish that every

710
00:32:24,139 --> 00:32:22,289
success but for this week

711
00:32:25,940 --> 00:32:24,149
this is Richard Saunders signing off

712
00:32:32,269 --> 00:32:25,950
once again from the Bay Area San

713
00:32:34,970 --> 00:32:32,279
Francisco you've been listening to the

714
00:32:40,549 --> 00:32:34,980
skeptic zone podcast please visit our

715
00:32:43,009 --> 00:32:40,559
website at WWE TV for shownotes contacts

716
00:32:47,029 --> 00:32:43,019
and to access the back catalog of

717
00:32:48,769 --> 00:32:47,039
episodes going back to 2008 you can

718
00:32:51,830 --> 00:32:48,779
follow the skeptic zone podcast on

719
00:32:54,110 --> 00:32:51,840
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720
00:32:54,980 --> 00:32:54,120
facebook page or leave a review on

721
00:32:57,680 --> 00:32:54,990
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722
00:33:01,039 --> 00:32:57,690
you can also support the skeptic zone

723
00:33:04,460 --> 00:33:01,049
via patreon or PayPal the skeptic zone

724
00:33:06,169 --> 00:33:04,470
podcast is an independent production the

725
00:33:08,299 --> 00:33:06,179
views and opinions expressed on the

726
00:33:10,639 --> 00:33:08,309
sceptic zone and not necessarily those

727
00:33:12,430 --> 00:33:10,649
of Australian skeptics or any other